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From: owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com (Traveller-digest)
To: traveller-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller-digest V1996 #730
Reply-To: traveller@mpgn.com
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com


Traveller-digest      Sunday, December 8 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 730



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The New Look of Traveller
T4 in Sweden
New/old ship designs?
Re: Rebellion
Strength of Aslans and Domain of Deneb
Re: Shawn Grey
Gravitic Thrusters
Re: Foss & Elmore; Imperium Games
Re: Foss & Elmore; Imperium Games
Re: Starships: no map grids
RE: Foss Art 
Re: Alternative Vehicle Designs: A Proposal
Re: Foss Art
Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #728
Re: Gravitic Thrusters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 08:42:15 -0500
From: sturm <sturm@tiac.net>
Subject: Re: The New Look of Traveller

If you want to see a another good example of sci-fi equipment
illustration, you should check out West End Games Gallindiums (sp?)
equipment guide for Star Wars.  Its got some great Deitrick stuff in it.

I'll reserve judgement until the Traveller equipment guide comes out. 
But IG should do like GDW and more to the point, DGP did for their
equipment, each piece of equipment should have its own page, with
detailed descriptions of what it does and an illustration.

IMHO

sturm@tiac.net 




Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> On  8 Dec 96 at 0:20, sturm wrote:
> 
> > I can't believe that Marc Miller is that out of touch with the core
> > Traveller audience.  People play Traveller because they love hard sci-fi
> > (hell, I still love 2300AD and think its the best hard sci-fi game evert
> > created).
> 
> Now, that game had some cool cover art.  I use it to reflect my
> Traveller game.
> 
> > The new art for Traveller IMHO, is crap.  I like Foss's art and Elmores,
> > BUT NOT IN TRAVELLER.  If Miller would have done his homework, he should
> > have gotten David Deitrick, Blair Reynolds and Mike Vilardi.  Their art
> > fits the Traveller universe like a glove.
> 
> Give me David Deitrick any day.
> 
> > Again, this is all IMHO
> 
> And mine too.
> 
> Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 14:53:14 +0100 (NFT)
From: Ola Agren <corps@ts.umu.se>
Subject: T4 in Sweden

My signed copy of T4 arrived this friday (after having spent two day or so
at one of my friends who handled the orders for four of us).

It DOES exist! :)=20

/Ola
- --
Ola =C5gren * corps@ts.umu.se * ola@cs.umu.se

General Preprocessing Perceptron -
=09How to put an awful lot of "knowledge" in a weighted sum.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 09:05:34 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: New/old ship designs?

Jerry Alexandratos wrote:

>:
>: What I don't like is that everything about the ships (jump
>: capability, m-drive, hardpoints, weapons, etc) are exactly the same
>: as the ships we've all come to associate with Traveller.  Even the
>: names are the same.  But, the ships look differently.
>:
>: That's a break in consistency in my book.
>:
>: I'm all for "new" ships, but I think they should not only look
>: different, but be different as well.  They should have different
>: performance characteristics.
>
>Look at automobiles.  As technology progresses more bells and whistles
>are added, but they remain the same basic piece of functioning
>technology.  Also, look at the automobiles produced in Mexico.  They are
>models that haven't been produced in the states in over 10 years.
>
>Sometimes when you define a class, it doesn't matter how much time
>lapses, if your requirements don't change.  After all, if it ain't
>broke, don't fix it!


        Using terran watercraft, for example, Chinese junks haven't changed
much for bloody centuries: the lack of wood, and shallow seas with lotsa
rocks basically call for a light, very compartmentalized design.  Last
summer I was down by a boatyard in Stanley, Hong Kong: they had a motor
junk up on skids: aside from the fact that it was motorized it still was
recognizably a junk.  Same hull construction, same hull shape; it just had
a prop instead of a rig.

        Ditto for dhows, apparently; classic design very well suited to the
exigencies of local navigation and commerce, and they've been sailing those
babies for a very long time...

>
>: Doesn't it bug anybody that a subsidized merchant, in the Year 0,
>: still has jump-1, still has 200 tons of cargo space, still has a 1-G
>: rating, still requires the same amount of crew, still is a 400 ton
>: displacement ship--in fact, the ship is exactly the same on paper as the
>: subsidized merchant 1100 years in the future?
>:
>: I think that IG should have come up with new ships for the year 0
>: that are really new ships--not just slap a new picture on the same
>: old statistics.
>:
>: I'm not against new ship designs--in fact, I'm for new designs.  What
>: I'm against is the same ships we've all come to know having a different look.
>
>I think that these ships should have a different look.  The fact is that
>styles change more than function.  Look at the Corvette of today and
>compare that to the Stingray.  How about the Nova as a muscle car and
>then as a hatchback?  Honda Civic?  The *real* differences are subtle at
>best.  The physical differences are due to the fact that people's idea
>of style changes over time.
>
>       --Jerry


        I'd think that if economic and navigational (whatever that means in
the space context) requirements remain the same, then ship designs are
going to reach an optimum for whatever niche they fill and stay pretty much
the same for long periods of time...


        Styling may well differ; some noble might have his yacht done up
with big fins and a pink & chrome paint job, and for the next century or so
every ship built in the sector is going to be styled vaguely like a 1950's
Caddy; however, the basic ship will probably not vary overmuch.

        My .02Cr...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 96 14:06 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Rebellion

In-Reply-To: <961207.001211.8f6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

<< >> Representative selection would have to be local option. Most
>> non-democracies would appoint someone. Heck, given that local autonomy
>> is pretty much guaranteed, I'd bet that most *democracies* would treat
>> it as an appointive position. 
>
> Again, hardly democratic.

"Democracy" is "everybody votes on everything". And it's impossible on
that scale. What folks are *calling* a democracy is actually a
republic. Representatives of "the people" make the decisions. The US is
a democratic republic. >>

Yes, but in the system you're suggesting, they're not going to be any 
more representative of their people than the Imperially-appointed Nobles 
are at present. 

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 16:18:46 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Strength of Aslans and Domain of Deneb

Harold Hale writes: 
>Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
> 
>>The Zhodani have the strength to defeat the Domain; the bit players do not.
> 
>   I'll have to review the Imperial fleet deployments in 1117, but I'm pretty
>confident that the combined Vargr, Aslan, and Sword World could defeat the
>the remaining Dominion forces.  

OK, let's have some numbers. But remember, I'm basing my arguments on the TCS
rules, not on the counters in _Fifth Frontier War_ (which does not remotely
come up to the force level that TCS implies; I consider 5FW a simplification
for purposes of playability). I enjoy a good argument, but it's more fun when
people agree about the premises ;-).

>Remember, not all of Norris' strength could be brought to bear against the 
>invaders--many of his best remaining ships would have to remain deployed 
>against the Zhodani flank, and could not be commited to the fight until it 
>was too late.

That's what he did "in reality". He moved many of his regular forces up to
defend against the Zhodani, something that turned out not to be necessary,
but he didn't know that. However, I claim that even if he just left the
reserve forces in place, they would be strong enough to hold the Aslans
and the Vargr at bay. I also claim that if he had sent his regular forces
off to fight for Strephon and left the reserve forces behind, the same
would apply PROVIDED the Zhodani remained quiscent.

Now you may argue that he also moved many of the reserve forces to the
Zhodani borders. I don't think that it would be according to SOP to strip
a subsector of all its reserve forces before war actually broke out, but
if you insist I'll accept that too. Just tell me how big a proportion of
the reserve forces you think it is reasonable that he left behind and I'll
argue from there. My own take is that the reserve forces would be left in
place. 

>   As it was, the Aslan acting with some Vargr assistance were able to
>outflank Tobia and drive well into the Spinward Marches, at one point
>capturing the Glisten system.  

(What Vargr assistance??? The Vargr were on the other side of the Domain.)
That's one problem right there. Glisten is a high-population TL 15 system.
It's defense forces alone amounts to (...damn, I don't have the Glisten
population figure handy) a lot, anyway. It's also one of the four most 
important systems in the Spinward Marches. Do you really think that Norris 
would have stripped it of ALL its regular and reserve forces? You seem to 
have a much poorer opinion of him than I do. I claim that the Aslans didn't 
have any more chance of capturing Glisten than they did of capturing Tobia.

>One can imagine that they would have performed even better if a good chunk 
>of Norris' fleets are off trying to liberate Strephon and bring peace and 
>justice to the Imperial core.

Well, yes and no. One cannot imagine that Norris would leave all his forces
guarding a peaceful Zhodani border if the Aslans had had the singular good
fortune to make any headway against the forces left behind to rimward. So 
if the Aslans could have made an impression on Tobia, Gazulin, Trin's Veil, 
and Glisten, then the fact that the regular fleets were so close would mean 
that a few of them could get back in a hurry and kick them out again, which 
wouldn't be possible if they were far away in the Imperial core. But since I 
claim that the Aslans couldn't even make headway against those defense forces 
and a few reserve fleets, I can't imagine that they could have performed any 
better.

>>The defensive forces of each world amounts to 70% of the naval budget.
> 
>   And most of those would be non-jump capable ships.  Fine for keeping the
>Aslan out of the high population systems (which the Aslan would by-pass
>anyway), 

Like Tobia and Glisten (Or Aki, for that matter).

>but useless for defending lower pop worlds.

Which is exactly what I said myself. (Although we don't know just how big a
proportion of the system defenses that would be jump capable. I wonder if
you will allow me 10% of the defense budget as a reasonable figure?) I said
that the reserve fleets alone would be enough to keep the Aslans at bay,
but that if Norris did send those away too, all he would lose would be the
low-population (and possibly the medium-population) worlds. Not that I can
see him doing that. I think he'd leave behind at least _some_ of the
reserve fleets, don't you? How big a percentage will you allow me?

>>Even with all the regular forces gone away, the reserve fleets are almost
>>as powerful on their own.
> 
>   Not exactly.  While they may be equipped at a similar tech level to the
>Aslan and Vargr, their quality would likely be inferior to the Aslan, though
>probably much better on average than your typical Vargr.  

There are no rules about how quality of crew affects ship performance, but
as far as that goes the Aslans aren't elite; they are _ihatei_, equipped
with obsolescent ships. As for the TL of the reserve forces, the salient
point about them seems to be that they are locally produced and maintained, 
which means that they may be TL 14 in some subsectors and even TL 13 in a 
few, but in Tobia, Trin's Veil, and Glisten they would be TL 15 (They may 
be _old_ TL15 ships, if they are regular navy hand-me-downs, but they won't 
be any older than the _ihatei_ ships). As for crew quality, it is possible
under High Guard rules to have a long career in a planetary navy. I see no
reason why the reserve fleets and PDFs wouldn't be up to snuff.

>Sword World naval forces would be at a distinct technological disadvantage, 
>but their morale and training would likely be superior as well.

How much better? 10 % better? 25%? Half again? Double? The Sword Worlds are
mostly TL 12 IIRC. Their ships will be at a 10:1 disadvantage against TL 14 
ships and a 20:1 against TL 15 ships.

>>The high-population worlds, which accounts for 99% of the strength of the 
>>Domain, are invulnerable to anything the Aslans and the Vargr can muster.
> 
>  But they can be, especially in the case of high pop, inhospitable worlds,
>starved into submission.  

Starve? You aren't proposing that any high-population world would actually
be importing food in amounts large enough to make a significant difference?
Try working out just how many ships Glisten or Tobia would need in order to
import food for just 10% of its population. Luxury imprts, sure. 
Supplementary foodstuffs, possibly. But relying on it? Impossible for a
high-population world (A medium and low population world can do it _if_ they
have a high-population world nearby that can provide the necessary
shipping).

>Even the more habitable worlds would face the prospect of eventual economic 
>collapse if cut off from interstellar contact long enough.

Why? A low or even a low medium population world, yes, if it is a "one-crop"
world. But a high-population world is just too big to be a one-crop world. A
system like Glisten must produce almost everything basic they need.

In any case, you can't blockade a world if you can't station ships in its 
system.

> >Until Norris gets the idea to offer the _Ihatei_ land for fighting the
> Vargr, of course...
> 
>   There's where a Vargr-Aslan alliance would be required (with the Sword
>Worlds entering into it for the sake of revenge).  In that case, the Aslan
>listen to Norris' offer and reply something to the effect of, "why do you
>promise us things that we can take from you anyway?"

Well, for one thing, they can't. But apart from that, what descriptions of
the Vargr and the Aslan psycology have you read? I'm unable to believe in
the Aslans cooperating for long, based on what we've been told about them,
but my mind positively boggles when I try to imagine a stable alliance
between dozens of Aslan clans AND Vargr groups. 

>>The Outworld Coalition included the Zhodani. In fact, the Zhodani must have
>>been 90+% of the Outworld Coalition. That made all the difference.
> 
>   So the Zhodani are replaced by the Aslan in the Coalition.  

The big basic fallacy here is that you speak of the Aslans as a cohesive 
whole on a par with the Zhodani. I admit that a union of all Aslan clans
on the far side of the Great Rift would have the strength to replace the
Zhodani. What I can't believe is that such a union is possible. At most
we have some cooperation between the various _ihatei_ of the clans (which
are not nearly the same thing), and even that is stretching things beyond
belief (More about this later).

>Under normal circumstances, the Imperial navy defeats them easily. But 
>these aren't normal circumstances.  Norris is being forced to fight with 
>two hands tied behind his back.

Well, this is one of those places where we have to decide on what we will
consider reasonable. The regular fleets are busy guarding the Zho border
(All of them? Do you really think it is reasonable to assume that Norris
would move every single one of the regular fleets to the Zho border?) Are
the reserve fleets with them? All of them? I'd like you to tell me just
how few forces you think Norris left behind to rimwards. Give me some 
numbers to work with here.

>>The Aslan _ihatei_ are handicapped by the fact that they are divided, using 
>>inferior ships, use a big slice of their budget for transport ships, wants
>>to settle down with their family in peace, and is at the end of a multi-
>>parsec supply line.
> 
>   The Aslan seem to have no trouble fighting against a common enemy, 

Look, I hope you won't take offense at this, but are we reading the same
books? It is axiomatic that the Aslans are incapable of uniting for any
length of time. That is mentioned time and time again. The only reason
the Aslans managed to grow so big is said to be because they arrived 
during the long night. They can barely manage it on the defensive (The
Peace of Ftalhar was only made with the four biggest Aslan clans; the
inference is that those were the ones involved in the duel war on the
Aslan side). And leaving aside any clan rivalry the _ihatei_ carry with
them from back home, they are rivals for the same pieces of real estaste. 

>have superior morale and training, and have a warrior ethic which says 
that you win the war, then settle down with your family in peace.  

You're ignoring the Aslans' two greatest handicaps: 1) Their division into 
separate clans and 2) that we're dealing with _ihatei_.

1) Seperate clans: There are literally hundreds of clans. Of these there
are 29 especially powerful, but those 29 by no means represent all the
military strength of the Aslans. How strong can the biggest clan be? I'd
say no more than 5% of the total Aslan strength and much more likely 2-3%.

2) Ihatei: We're not talking about a concerted attack backed by the full
military power of the entire Aslan population of the Trojan Reaches. We're 
talking about younger sons being fitted out with _surplus_ ships out of 
what the clan chief feels that he can spare. Is he going to commit his full 
military strength? No, he's going to keep 90% of it home to defend his own 
lands against rival neighbouring clans. Remember that taking over a
neighbouring world will let you get rid of orders of maginitude more
_ihatei_ than sending them off to the Imperium. In Rebellion we're told that 
the typical _ihatei_ fleet is TL 13. Ths must mean that _ihatei_ fleets are
a TL lower than regular clan fleets (Presumably for the same reason the
reserve fleets are a TL lower than regular forces). If so, 55 billion TL 14 
Aslans will muster the equivalent of the full navy of 5.5 billion TL 13 
beings for their _ihatei_ and 170 billion TL 13 Aslans will represent an 
actual menace equal to the full navy of 17 billion TL 12 beings. IF they 
cooperate fully and IF they use all their ressources on warships, which we 
know is not the case.

IMO the Trojan Reach forces alone can deal with this. But even if you inflate 
the strength of the Aslan _ihatei_ they still can't win. Even if the Domain 
don't have the muscle to deal with all Aslans, they will certainly have 
enough to make life impossible for any one clan if they get really upset. Any 
_ihatei_ admiral is going to think long and hard before sacrificing his fleet 
so that other clans may have it a bit softer. Remember that the goal of every 
_ihatei_ admiral in a coalition won't just be to defeat the Imperial forces 
defending his chosen bit of land, but to do so while sustaining the least 
possible casualties. And if the other clans take disproportionally greater 
losses, so much the better when the time comes to divide the spoils. Don't 
you think any half-competent Imperial diplomat could do something with that 
situation? Especially since there are much easier targets available closer to 
their home bases. 

>Also, I would expect that they would "live off the land", living on half 
>rations when they have to and using captured human starports for repairs, 
>and even ships and weapons if it comes to that.

Recipice for roast moose: First you catch a moose. The human starports will
be defended. Any starport big enough to be any use will be defended. 

>   Part of the fun of constructing a "what-if" scenario is to build one that
>is believable.  There are just too many problems impeding Norris for him to
>have even give serious consideration to sending a large expedition into a
>fight across the Corridor and on to the main portion of Imperial space.

There is one problem, the Zhodani. Certainly enough to make it plausible that
he stay put. But I think it equally plausible that a direct order from the 
true Emperor could set him off. 

>>Brzk and Margaret are some of the people that Strephon could convince in a
>>face to face confrontation simply because there would be things Strephon
>>would know that even a duplicate wouldn't. 
> 
>   Brzk in a face-to-face meeting perhaps, but Margaret may have denied him
>in hopes of co-opting his supporters.  My general impression is that when it
>comes to politics, she was as capable as anybody of playing rough.

And then again, she may not. We don't know anything about her personal
integrity. Besides, I'm not sure that siding with even a _false_ Strephon,
let alone a true one, wouldn't have been useful enough to get even a 
thoroughly machiavellian Margaret to see him. As I said before, imagine how
many more defections a Strephon backed by an Archduke and a close personal 
relative would have provoked. 

>>(It's rather strange that Dulinor wasn't informed ahead of time that
>>Strephon wasn't available; as an Arch-duke who must have been close to 
>>Strephon on numerous occasions he'd surely know the score and rate the truth
> 
>   Emperor Strephon was AWOL on the day of the killings.  The fact that he
>would allow a double to stand in for him in a meeting with one of the half
>dozen most powerful nobles in the Imperium, and one with which he apparently
>was having some difficulty with, tells you something of how corrupt the
>Imperial family had become, or just how incompetant Strephon really was in
>the end.

I agree that Strephon mishandled the Longbow situation. What is puzzling is
that even the mishandling was mishandled, so to speak. Dulinor should have
been told. The risk of him seeing through the double might not have been
very big, but there must have been some risk, and the offense it would give
if that happened would surely have been far worse than that of telling him
beforehand.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 16:34:11 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Shawn Grey

Kenneth Bearden writes:
>Shawn hated the idea of giving up the Harrier after he had come so
>close.  But losing yourself on a 4 year enlistment in the Army beats
>going to a prison planet for the rest of your life.  Hell, who was he
>kidding.  He had murdered five citizens in Imperial space.  If they
>caught him, he'd be probably executed on a prison planet.  Either
>option didn't sound that good.  He was going to lose himself for 4
>years and try to start over after he got out. 

Nice work, Kenneth, but I have a couple of problems with the story: How will
enlisting in one Imperial organization hide Shawn from another Imperial
organization? Surely the Imperial Army isn't the French Foreign Legion?
And surely the Navy will be able to find the March Harrier at the very
least. If they can't just check the Army's files, that ship will point a
direct finger at Shawn as long as he retains any title to it. And the Navy
isn't just going to forget anything; piracy is something they take very
seriously.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        'There was a man,'  remarked Captain Eliot, 'who was sentenced
    to death for stealing a horse from a common. He said to the judge,
    that  he  thought it hard to be hanged for stealing a horse from a
    common  and  the  judge  answered,  "You  are not to be hanged for
    stealing  a  horse  from  a common,  but that others may not steal
    horses from commons." '
        'And do you find,' asked Stephen, 'that in fact horses are not
    daily stolen from commons? You do not!'

                        --- "The Mauritius Command" by Patrick O'Brian

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 02:45:51 -0800
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Gravitic Thrusters

I seem to have read somewhere that the Gravitic Thrusters in T4 need
a planetary gravity field to push against. That's fine by me, but how do
you accelerate *towards* a planet?
Perhaps my understanding is flawed? Can anyone clear this up for me?

Anyone with the new "Starships" supplement, does it describe how they
work?

Harry the Signatureless

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 11:06:53 -0500
From: Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net>
Subject: Re: Foss & Elmore; Imperium Games

At the risk of 'me too-ing' this list to death, I've got to throw in with
those who dislike the Foss and Elmore art.

Foss does wonderfully nifty stuff, to be sure, but I get the urge to scream
every time I see it attached to Traveller.  And his weapons/vehicles are so
incredibly stupid (sorry, no other word for it) that, in my opinion, it
seriously detracts from the game.

Elmore is very, very good at doing D&D stuff, but PLEASE get him out of
Traveller!  He's messing the place up in a big way.  A few years back he
did a cover for a white wolf product (I know, I know, boo hiss etc...) and
it was similarly out of place; stunning, but didn't match the milieu.

Frankly, I have tried very, very hard not to get down on the new Traveller,
but it's just so easy to do so.  The T4 book was so obviously thrown
together at the last minute that it hurts to look at it, badly designed,
edited and laid out by the Keebler Elves by the looks of it and just, well,
plain.  If I were a new gamer I'd take one look at it and run for my life.

(And yes, I could do better.  I'd offer to, in fact.)

Also, the whole IG administrative mess is similarly amateurish.  The books
are messed up by a printer?  That's YOUR fault; do better homework before
you select one, and make sure you proof at least one (and preferably more,
if necessary) blues of the product beforehand.  Make sure you ship in time,
ESPECIALLY if you're charging people well in advance.  Web site is up,
down, moved, generally neglected. It's a crying shame.

I'll never abandon the idea of Traveller, but I am searching for those
little black books and house rules collection I remember so fondly. . . .


With regrets (and donning asbestos costume),
Ross Coburn
ross@odyssee.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 11:06:53 -0500
From: Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net>
Subject: Re: Foss & Elmore; Imperium Games

At the risk of 'me too-ing' this list to death, I've got to throw in with
those who dislike the Foss and Elmore art.

Foss does wonderfully nifty stuff, to be sure, but I get the urge to scream
every time I see it attached to Traveller.  And his weapons/vehicles are so
incredibly stupid (sorry, no other word for it) that, in my opinion, it
seriously detracts from the game.

Elmore is very, very good at doing D&D stuff, but PLEASE get him out of
Traveller!  He's messing the place up in a big way.  A few years back he
did a cover for a white wolf product (I know, I know, boo hiss etc...) and
it was similarly out of place; stunning, but didn't match the milieu.

Frankly, I have tried very, very hard not to get down on the new Traveller,
but it's just so easy to do so.  The T4 book was so obviously thrown
together at the last minute that it hurts to look at it, badly designed,
edited and laid out by the Keebler Elves by the looks of it and just, well,
plain.  If I were a new gamer I'd take one look at it and run for my life.

(And yes, I could do better.  I'd offer to, in fact.)

Also, the whole IG administrative mess is similarly amateurish.  The books
are messed up by a printer?  That's YOUR fault; do better homework before
you select one, and make sure you proof at least one (and preferably more,
if necessary) blues of the product beforehand.  Make sure you ship in time,
ESPECIALLY if you're charging people well in advance.  Web site is up,
down, moved, generally neglected. It's a crying shame.

I'll never abandon the idea of Traveller, but I am searching for those
little black books and house rules collection I remember so fondly. . . .


With regrets (and donning asbestos costume),
Ross Coburn
ross@odyssee.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 10:13:46 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Starships: no map grids

On Sun, 8 Dec 1996, Glenn Grant wrote:

> Are you sure this is a mistake? In CT and T4, the map grid is 1.5m; but

Nope.  Actually, given the fact that it was Don Perrin who oversaw the 
Starships project, I'm pretty sure it wasn't a mistake, in the sense that 
he didn't intend to put them there and then forgot, or something like 
that.  I just meant it was definitely going to be a big negative factor 
for Traveller fans.


> I've heard that TNE used a 2m grid. So if IG had put a grid on the maps,
> one or the other faction of players would be ticked off. As it is, both can
> use the book, albeit with some slight inconvenience.

Hmmm.  Not a bad thought (not thinking as clearly as you, I'd figured I'd 
have to pull out a ruler and pencil,and pencil in some grids - of course, 
use  copier you dope![G]).


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 11:19:06 -0500 (EST)
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Subject: RE: Foss Art 

In Reply to Your Message of Sun, 08 Dec 1996 02: 52:42 GMT
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 11:19:05 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@brahms.udel.edu>

: I thought that the IG web site said that this art work was all 
: original.  Now that you mention it, I recognize the style, but 
: couldn't tell you if I've seen the exact paintings or just some other 
: Foss stuff.  He definitely has a style.  

I think they're talking about his pencil drawings.  The paintings are
definitely from other sources.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 10:30:15 -0600
From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Subject: Re: Alternative Vehicle Designs: A Proposal

Phillip McGregor wrote:
>
> 5) Design will be built around basic hull types (Cars, Vans,
> Pickups, Light Aircraft, AFVs etc.) and ...

How about Cycles, and Small Watercraft & Submersibles?

One of the things that has always disappointed me about the original 
Striker rules was the lack of design sequences for Watercraft & 
Submersibles. (Okay, flame throwers, too. ;-)

I have no idea what's covered in FFS, but it would be nice to be
able to create interesting vehicles like Sailing Ships and other low
tech level stuff in addition to the usual high tech gadgets.  (For
example, a wooden sailing ship with grav plates?)

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David T. Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@nascrag.org

------------------------------

Date: Sun,  8 Dec 1996 12:32:47 -0500
From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
Subject: Re: Foss Art

Douglas Berry said:
> Am I the only one here who really dislikes Mr. Foss' artwork? 

No, not at all.  I find his stuff okay at best -- which is why I am selling my  
copy of his 1990 softcover large format book, _Diary of a Space Person_, for 
$15 (includes shipping).  [Send me personal email if interested.]

As others have pointed out, the color pieces are reprints -- many (such as the 
cover) appear in _Diary_.

I have to admit, though, there has bee n a lot of previous Traveller art I 
didn't like either.  Anything by Tom Peters (especially the Fiery!) was great, 
but most of the ships in, for example, _Fighting Ships of the Shattered 
Imperium_ were just bizarre, from an engineering as well as an aesthetic 
viewpoint.  The general rule of thumb I have noticed (with the exception of 
the Azhanti High Lightning class frontier cruisers) is that the larger the 
ship, the goofier it looks.
 
> If a new edition of Space Opera were to appear, Foss would be among 
> my first choices for cover artist, but not for Traveller. 

I disagree with this -- I don't think Foss could do _Space Opera_, either.  
Many of the Terran ships (at least) from _SO_ (e.g., Nike class, scout, 
<Can'tThinkOfIt> patrol ship) would look at home in Traveller starport.

Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
Through sheer random chance, my employer may 
someday agree with something I say.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 13:09:02 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #728

Phillip McGregor wrote:
> He may be good with colours, but a SF artist he ain't.
> In fact, I'd pay extra for a T4 edition *without* his godawful garbage-art.

C'mon Phil, take off the kid gloves, stop beating around the bush, state your case...
Do you or do you not like Foss' stuff?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 13:13:42 +0000
From: Mused <marz@hotstar.net>
Subject: Re: Gravitic Thrusters

Harry wrote:
> 
> I seem to have read somewhere that the Gravitic Thrusters in T4 need
> a planetary gravity field to push against. That's fine by me, but how do
> you accelerate *towards* a planet?
> Perhaps my understanding is flawed? Can anyone clear this up for me?

Put the ship in reverse!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #730
**********************************

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